DeepCosmos for http://yergler.net/blog/archives/2005/02/08/using-java-with-cc-web-services
is a class of applications outside the traditional requirements of high end transactional enterprise development and workflow that just don't require the reinvention of Corba-class integration. b. the comment there isnt any demand for SOAP refers to comments from the Creative Commons . It's clear that we're on the same page here: "its all about niches or not." [IMG]
is a class of applications outside the traditional requirements of high end transactional enterprise development and workflow that just don't require the reinvention of Corba-class integration. b. the comment there isnt any demand for SOAP refers to comments from the Creative Commons . In other words i am talking about classes of applications. Scale matters in some situations. And for the world of guaranteed transactional application development WS-I obviously has a big role to play. But i also think MQSeries isn't dead. It is
James Governor : ...some keys to consider in my earlier post on SOAP and REST - those are a. niche - my intention was never to say SOAP is dead, merely that is not a necessary condition for web service development. ...
rich platforms like flickr and Amazon are being accessed by RESTful methods, not IBM/MS defined "XML Web Services" calls. Now it seems the Creative Commons is responding to RESTful demand. Or more pertinently-not responding to SOAP demand because there isn't any
James Governor's MonkChips: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched
Well in the past few days I've been reading some posts, which seem to bring back some close by history, James Governor is bored by SOAP and more to the point doesn't understand why vendors don't support REST. Mike Champion doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. These are only two articles out of many. Mike kind of makes the point I want to make, and I agree
Excellent piece on developer acceptance of convoluted XML-based message passing over at RedMonk. I would like to counter that SOAP is not so much boring, it's tedious. However, SOAP is by far not the worst offender in XML suckyness. Look at the horrible stuff that
James Governor's MonkChips: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched
There is lots of rumble in the blogosphere about the current state of the Simple Object Access Protocol. Much of it caused by the recent rise and success of RESTful web services. James Governor sent out a wake-up call to tool developers. Tim Bray a few months ago complained about the proliferation of WS-* standards. Carlos E. Perez posted an interesting article, pretty much summing up what's going on. And I have written a few not so nice sentences about it (
Another call to bump SOAP in favor of REST Posted in Technology | No Comments »'
like flickr and Amazon are being accessed by RESTful methods, not IBM/MS defined "XML Web Services" calls. Now it seems the Creative Commons is responding to RESTful demand. Or more pertinently-not responding to SOAP demand because there isn't any. [ JamesGovernor | NetworkWorldFusion]
I hear some of the HTTPfarians saying but SOAP replaces HTTP headers by SOAP headers and it is bad! Well if you want to use HTTP independent security, SOAP is for you. If not, just use HTTP headers who cares? Myth 2: SOAP is (bad) RPC.' James is quoted on SOAP: "...It is often described as 'lightweight', but its RPC roots keep showing." Hmm. The fact is that there is nothing more RPC with SOAP than with REST. Our Systinet Server is very often used for completely asynchronous one-way message
SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched "Evidence continues to mount that developers can' t be bothered with SOAP and the learning requirements associated with use of the standard for information interchange. It is often described as "lightweight", but its RPC roots keep showing.
Tim Bray has put already himself forward as a loyal oppositionist when it comes to WS-*, and is now letting James Governor do the talking: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched . Predictably there was a backlash, well actually quite a well-reasoned response from Mike Champion, amplified by Dare Obasanjo. But anyone looking at the huge list of WS-* specs (check this map) should look worried. The more convincing of WS-*
There's been a lot of talk recently ( James Governor , Mike Champion, Dare Obasanjo, Ryan Tomayko) over the age old REST vs SOA, POX/POT vs SOAP debate, something that I'm really not interested in. Big business like SOA with SOAP and that's great for them, if they want to recreate CORBA over HTTP then
Another good tip from SOA today pointing to stories questining the uptake of SOAP and the necessity of UDDI. This is one of the key problems of large-scale interoperability - you only value what everybody else uses - the less cases there are of people interconnecting between their own services and those deployed by others they less
Well in the past few days I've been reading some posts, which seem to bring back some close by history, James Governor is bored by SOAP and more to the point doesn't understand why vendors don't support REST. Mike Champion doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. These are only two articles out of many. Mike kind of makes the point I want to make, and I agree
sent out a wake-up call to tool developers. Tim Bray a few months ago complained about the proliferation of WS-* standards. Carlos E. Perez posted an interesting article, pretty much summing up what's going on. And I have written a few not so nice sentences about it (
James Governor's MonkChips: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched SOAP Is Hateful moominmolly: Monkey park! MONKEY!
can formulate a regular HTTP request and parse an XML document. The upcoming question is whether to go back and build a SOAP interface as an alternative to the REST interface. Here's a post from James Governor pointing out that developers just don't care for SOAP , which certainly mirrors my own experience. Update: Karl Martino forwards a quote from an interview with Flickr CEO Stewart Butterfield:
[1] "RESTfully" using XML transferred via HTTP, vs those who work with SOAP, WSDL, and the specs built on them known as "WS-*". The item that finally got me to blog about this painful [2] subject was James Governor's SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched
Some interesting comments from my old team.[IMG] Andrew Conrad's WebLog
comments
Tim Bray has put already himself forward as a loyal oppositionist when it comes to WS-*, and is now letting James Governor do the talking: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched . Predictably there was a backlash, well actually quite a well-reasoned response from Mike Champion, amplified by Dare Obasanjo. But anyone looking at the huge list of WS-* specs (check this map) should look worried. The more convincing of WS-*
Danny , a map of the WS-* universe. The navigation isn't very Firefox friendly, but all the same, it's a nice piece of work and has motivated me to revisit my own pet project to visualise the relationships between WS-* specifications and the people behind
SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched
[1] "RESTfully" using XML transferred via HTTP, vs those who work with SOAP, WSDL, and the specs built on them known as "WS-*". The item that finally got me to blog about this painful [2] subject was James Governor's SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched Evidence continues to mount that developers can' t be bothered with SOAP and the learning requirements associated with use of the standard for information interchange. ...Developers are turning their backs on the standard. Folks that is, building
James Governor's MonkChips: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched 'Gannon' Signs Off: Tells E&P He'll No Longer Talk to Press The Stakeholder :: Guckert Gets FOIA'd
Excellent piece on developer acceptance of convoluted XML-based message passing over at RedMonk. I would like to counter that SOAP is not so much boring, it's tedious. However, SOAP is by far not the worst offender in XML suckyness. Look at the horrible stuff that
using XML transferred via HTTP, vs those who work with SOAP, WSDL, and the specs built on them known as “WS-*”. The item that finally got me to blog about this painful [2] subject was James Governor’s' SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched Evidence continues to mount that developers can’ t be bothered with SOAP and the learning requirements associated with use of the standard for information interchange. …Developers are turning their backs on the standard. Folks that is, building'
for Windows XP customers. Betas of IE7 will be available this summer. This new release will build on the work we did in Windows XP SP2 and (among other things) go further to defend users from phishing as well as deceptive or malicious software." * Understanding the Place of POX, SOAP and WS-* in Building XML Web Services . # Post a Comment - (0 comments) YARS
ManageWithoutThem Main ManageWithoutThem site Other Sites My Flickr Photos RSS Feeds Andrew Newman's MoreNewsComparing YARS and Kowari RDF/XML for Aliens Achieving WS Functionality with REST Quick Links YARS Jason Pettus [journal]Why is it that I suddenly know so much about Disneyworld? Random notes. More thoughts about how we gather information these days. I'm finally learning some things about RSS.
James Governor writes ... One big question is why haven't IBM and Microsoft responded? The obvious answer is vested interest. When you have "bet the company" on a technology stack its kind of a drag to have to respond to something else. Its interesting that in a week when
[1] "RESTfully" using XML transferred via HTTP, vs those who work with SOAP, WSDL, and the specs built on them known as "WS-*". The item that finally got me to blog about this painful [2] subject was James Governor's SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched
of intermediaries to dispatch messages based on the content of XML in the message body. Both overestimate HTTP, fail to put the headers HTTP provides to good use, and design protocols ignorant of media types. Mostly, the arguments are a waste of time. Michael Champion : "I spent two years on the W3C Web Services Architecture Working Group, most of that as a co-chair, and the debate between the SOAP/WSDL/WS-* developers and the REST advocates took up a disproportionate amount of time and energy.
My del.icio.us links. msn_screenshot.png (PNG Image, 1024x743 pixels) MARC: msg '[PROPOSAL] Roller@Apache' ongoing : Free No Longer franklinmint.fm: Bah. Mono Package Framework Guide to Using XMLHttpRequest (with Baby Steps) from WebPasties ongoing : My Own Computers MetaDistribution.org NOVELL: Cool Solutions: Ximian's co-creator Nat Friedman entertains the future...
REST and WS-* Bill de hÓra: The integrator's dilemma presents an execellent discussion of when the two approcahes are appropriate by discussing another posting by Mike Champion on' REST tools
Mike Champion has a crack at delineating between REST and WS. The question he's responding to is whether Microsoft are ignoring demand for REST tools?
Dvorak on MSFT not being a great marketer. (Via sog) A RATIONAL DESIGN PROCESS: HOW AND WHY TO FAKE IT Recommended by Matt Ray. The world and the machine A Michael Jackson paper recommended by Matt Ray The integrator's dilemma Via cafeconleche.org More on RSS Desktop Management More thoughts on using a podcasting model for patch management. I know Susan will like it ;> Symantec, Computer Sciences team up "CSC, meanwhile, will provide Symantec access to a larger
And Now for Something Completely Different: REST vs. WS-* February 17, 2005 | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0) In the seemingly never-ending saga of REST vs. WS/SOAP, a great essay from Bill de hÓra.'
Bill de hÓra' Using the Christensen playbook, we should consider whether WS specs and tools are being commoditized by disruptive technologies. If so the natural progression for them and the software based on them is to move up the value chain. When the mass market
Bill de hÓra'
Del.icio.us + Digg Latest OldVersion.com Bill de h�ra: The integrator's dilemma' fac.etio.us The cost of ethics: Influence peddling in the blogosphere EFF: Endangered Gizmos! Juergen Specht - Photographs - Documentation 1: Japanese Warning Signs Fantastic Metropolis � Fifty Fantasy'
In the seemingly never-ending saga of REST vs. WS/SOAP, a great essay from Bill de hÓra.'
Bill de hOra
http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2005/02/thats-it.html
toolkits that support plain old XML over HTTP and instead focusing on SOAP-based XML Web Services and the WS-* family of specifications. Before I could respond I saw that Mike Champion had already beat me to the punch with his post MS Ignoring developer demand for REST tools? where he writes The long running PR battle is heating up again between those who advocate the implementation of service architectures [1] "RESTfully" using XML transferred via HTTP, vs those who work with SOAP, WSDL, and
James Governor left a long comment on my earlier post. I'm not going to respond too much here -- Mike and Dare have pretty much summed it up. I do wish, though, that the Amazon "85%" statistic would stop being used to illustrate the success of REST -- because Amazon's 'REST' API's aren't really RESTful. If anything, comparing them to SOAP is an'
Brain.Save() - SOAP's not boring; Amazon's not RESTful; can't we all move on? I do wish, though, that the Amazon "85%" statistic would stop being used to illustrate the success of REST -- because Amazon's 'REST' API's aren't really RESTful. If anything, comparing them to SOAP is an excercise in the relative merits of HTTP GET
can formulate a regular HTTP request and parse an XML document. The upcoming question is whether to go back and build a SOAP interface as an alternative to the REST interface. Here's a post from James Governor pointing out that developers just don't care for SOAP , which certainly mirrors my own experience. Update: Karl Martino forwards a quote from an interview with Flickr CEO Stewart Butterfield: Koman: Do you see Flickr and its open API as representing a next generation of web services? What things can
I haven’t been banging my WS-Gadfly drum recently, but that’s OK, because James Governor' is on the job .
Interesting rant from James Governor over at RedMonk entitled "SOAP is boring" : The slavishness of a not invented here mentality is one of the defining characteristics of the tech industry. Another technology that some developers are actually using, but which big vendors and analyst firms like to describe as dead, is
James Governor's MonkChips: SOAP is boring, wake up Big Vendors or get niched
James Governor calls time on SOAP
blog post
Are more developers turning their backs on SOAP for Web services? Redmonk’s James Governor just' posted this provocative thought at his MonkChips blogsite: "Evidence continues to mount that developers can’ t be bothered with SOAP and the learning requirements associated with use of the standard for information interchange. It is often described as'
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